martes, 13 de septiembre de 2011

What Is The Gauḍīya Sampradāya? --- An Interview by Śrīmatī Satyarūpa Devī Dāsī

What Is The Gauḍīya Sampradāya? --- An Interview by Śrīmatī Satyarūpa Devī Dāsī --- Murwillumbah, Australia. 1.15.2000

Oṁ viṣṇupāda paramahaṁsa parivrājakācārya aṣṭottara-śata Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Gosvāmī Mahārāja

[Satyarūpa devī dāsī is a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda. She is attending University to get her PHD in religious study. She asked many important and essential questions about our Guru-paramparā. Śrīla Bhaktivedanta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja was so pleased with her that he later requested her to be always on tour with his travelling party.]

[Satyarūpa Didi] Can you tell me about the development of Gauḍīya Maṭha, maybe from the time you joined?
And can you explain how and why it branched out into different maṭhas?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] I will tell you all things, beginning from where Gauḍīya Maṭha originally came.

[Satyarūpa Didi] You told me in one darśana that the Gauḍīya Maṭha came from Brahma.

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] But now I will tell you more. Those who follow Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, especially those who are from a place called Gauḍa, these devotees are called Gauḍīya. There are five Gauḍas, and each is between two rivers. The first is Punjab, located between the Sindhu and Yamuna rivers; another is between Ganges and Yamuna. Another is between Ganges and Gaṇḍaka, and the fourth is between two other rivers and the fifth is Bengal. Of the five, the prominent Gauḍa is Bengal.

[Satyarūpa Didi] Why?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] Because Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared there. He practiced love and affection for Kṛṣṇa in Parakīyā mood.

Do you know what is meant by Parakīyā?

It is paramour-love (transcendental unwedded love). In India there are so many sampradāyas and they do not know about this; but Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu discovered it from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

[Satyarūpa Didi] What specific verses are evidence of this in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja]

ativilaṅghya te 'nty acyutāgatāḥ
gati-vidas tavodgīta-mohitāḥ
kitava yoṣitaḥ kas tyajen niśi
(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 10. 31. 16)

“When Kṛṣṇa played His flute on the full-moon night, all the Gopīs left their husbands, children, friends, fathers, mothers, and everything, and they went to Kṛṣṇa. Their husbands were there at home; and therefore this is Parakīyā. Although the Gopīs had husbands, Kṛṣṇa was their beloved. From the beginning they had no relation with their husbands; Yogamāyā arranged it so that their husbands never touched them. She made artificial wives, and the husbands used to be with them. Those who accept this, and who follow the teachings of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, are called Gauḍīya.

[Satyarūpa Didi] Like the false Sītā?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] Yes, something like that. There are so many ślokas in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

na pāraye 'haṁ niravadya-saṁyujāṁ
sva-sādhu-kṛtyaṁ vibudhāyuṣāpi vaḥ
yā mābhajan durjara-geha-śṛṅkhalāḥ
saṁvṛścya tad vaḥ pratiyātu sādhunā
(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 10.32.22)

Kṛṣṇa is telling the Gopīs:

“I cannot repay you. Your love and affection to Me, and our meetings are so pure and transcendental that I cannot repay you. You have given up your husbands and all other relatives for Me, but I cannot give up anyone.  I cannot give up my father and mother. I have so many bhaktas, and I cannot give them up. Therefore I cannot repay you.”

The Gopīs had left their husbands, and therefore this verse is another evidence of Parakīyā-bhāva. This understanding was discovered and preached in this world by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Those who follow this idea of Mahāprabhu, under the guidance of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī and Śrīla Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, are Gauḍīya. Those who do not follow are not Gauḍīyas, even if they live in that area. Those who maintain this idea that the Gopīs are Parakīyā, who want to develop the same mood, and are doing bhajan for that end, are Gauḍīyas. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī is Śrī Rūpa Mañjarī. He is doing bhajan, externally in the body of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, and internally as Śrī Rūpa Mañjarī. Externally he is chanting and remembering as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, and internally he is serving in his siddha-deha of Śrī Rūpa Mañjarī. He is serving Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa conjugal.

This is the idea of Gauḍīya, and those who follow this are Gauḍīyas. It is coming especially from Śrī Mādhavendra Purī, then Śrī Iśvara Purī, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Śrī Nityānanda, Śrī Svarūpa Dāmodara—down to my Gurudeva, Śrīla Bhakti Prajñāna Keśava Gosvāmī Mahārāja.

[Satyarūpa Didi] But there is a gap there—from Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura.

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] No, you should accept everyone in our Guru paramparā: Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, the Sad (six) Gosvāmīs, and Śrī Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī. Then the three—Śrī Śyāmānanda Prabhu, Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura and Śrīla Śrīvāsa Ācārya. Then afterwards, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, Śrī Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana, Śrīla Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja and all others. There is no gap. There are so many Ācāryas.

[Satyarūpa Didi] Have you written about this?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] Everything is written. Then Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Gaura Kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, my Gurudeva and also Śrīla Bhaktivedanta Svāmī—your Prabhupāda. And then it is coming to us.

How has the Guru-paramparā become so many?

Because it descended from the six Gosvāmīs, then to Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, and then to Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura.  They preached all over Bengal and made so many disciples. It was not by quarreling that their centres manifested everywhere. It is all coming through paramparā. Some came from Nityānanda Prabhu, some from His wife, Śrīmatī Jāhnavā Ṭhākurānī, and some from Śrīnivāsa Ācārya, Śrī Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura and others. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī never made any formal śiṣyas (disciples). He made only one śiṣya—Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī. Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī also did not make any formal disciples, but he adopted those like Śrīnivāsa, Śyāmānanda and Narottama dāsa, and he taught them all the spiritual truths.  From these three came so many groups: Śyāmānanda group, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura’s group, Śrīnivāsa Ācārya’s group, and the group of Vīracandra, the son of Jāhnavā and Nityānanda Prabhu. Their branches and sub-branches spread everywhere.

After Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana, there was a bad time for Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas. The preaching stopped, and all learned persons lost faith in Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism. Some developed like the Sahajiyās, doing ‘bhajan’ by taking others’ wives and saying:

“This is Parakīyā-bhāva”.

So many bad things mixed in this. Then Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura came and saw that so many amalgamations had come. He therefore began to preach, and when Śrīla Prabhupāda Bhakti Siddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura came, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura told him:

“O, preach my books here and there.”

And he began to do that.

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura had so many very qualified disciples. Among them our Guru Mahārāja was very prominent; and others were also, like Pūjyapāda Śrīla Śrīdhara Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha, Śrīla Śrautī
 Mahārāja, Śrīla Giri Mahārāja, Śrīla Bon Mahārāja, Śrīla Vikāras Bhāratī Mahārāja, Śrīla Mādhava Mahārāja, Śrīla Siddhāntī Mahārāja—so many. And they established their maṭhas here and there.

After Śrīla Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura there was a person named Ananta Vāsudeva prabhu. He was very qualified, but he became charmed by a lady devotee and left his sannyāsa. They married and after that all became against him and said:

“Now you should enter family life. This behaviour is like that of a dog who eats something and again vomits it.”

At that time he was very powerful. He had money and so many disciples, and he began to torture his god-brothers, the disciples of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, who opposed him.

[Satyarūpa Didi] What was the cause of the friction?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] It came about because he was attracted to his own lady-disciple and married her. Everyone told him that in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures it is written that such behaviour is not a good thing for Vaiṣṇavism.  They therefore said;

“You should go with her; and you should vacate your position as Ācārya.”

Everyone turned against him. He was at that time very wealthy, and he had a great deal of power. His god-brothers therefore left his place and established their maṭhas here and there.

So there are many sections, and everyone besides him is in the paramparā. All are like one. Sometimes they meet together and have discussions. They also meet here and there wherever there is an utsava (festival). Their preaching centres are in different places, but they are of the same opinion.

[Satyarūpa Didi] Was the falling of Ananta Vāsudeva Kṛṣṇa’s arrangement so that the Gauḍīya Maṭha will grow more?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] Yes, that is right. We can reconcile it in this way. Otherwise we could not have preached all over the world.

I know that we are all in one family, and the family master is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu who taught that we should all serve Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Though our preaching centres are in different places, we are in one family. I also think that you are in our family.

[Satyarūpa Didi] I think so too. We are all one family.

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] Any more questions?
Are you satisfied?

[Satyarūpa Didi] Yes, I have many questions. Can I ask you a personal question?
How do you deal with the antagonism?
How are you responding to some of the ISKcON leaders being against you?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] I am very happy. I know that they are my children. Śrīla Svāmī Mahārāja has told me to save them, and I know that they are ignorant. I want to help them in all ways. Little children may make some disturbance, but the mother or father does not take offense. I always try to help them and I am very happy. I know that they are my children. They may do anything to me, and I never take any offense. I am happy that I am helping you. I want to help everyone—including those who have left. I have relation with so many who fell down. They are coming to me and I am happy. I know that they are like my younger brothers and sister, my sons and daughters. I never feel anything when some persons say things against me. They make so much bad propaganda, but I feel no disturbance. I become happy that by this propaganda I will preach more.

 [Satyarūpa Didi] Can you tell something about your initiation?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] My initiation is like that of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, like that of my Gurudeva, and like that of Śrīla Svāmīji—the same.

[Satyarūpa Didi] What does your initiation mean to you? 
What is the intrinsic meaning?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] Initiation means the giving of a thick relation, a special relation with Kṛṣṇa, and the realisation of ‘who am I’. Regarding the word ‘dīkṣā’ in Sanskrit: in ‘di’, divya-jñāna (the realisation of ones transcendental relationship with Kṛṣṇa) comes:

‘I am an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa.’

But there must be some deeper meaning of:

‘Eternal servant’

In the line of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī there are five kinds of relations with Kṛṣṇa. To give any of these relationships—this is initiation. Initiation is not given in a moment or in a day. We admit the devotee in the ‘school’ of dīkṣā, and it may take so much time to realise all these things.

[Satyarūpa Didi] I heard that Śrīla Bhakti Pramoda Purī Mahārāja said that the person who is designated by the Guru to perform his samādhi is his successor.
Is that true?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] It is not necessarily true, but Śrīla Svāmīji Mahārāja told me to give him samādhi, and I did it. He had so much faith in me. I am not His uttama-adhikārī (successor). Actually I am. Those who are falling down are his successors outwardly, but spiritually and transcendentally I am his successor.

But you should also understand that any very high class of devotee may not be present at the time of giving samādhi. He may actually be a more elevated disciple, and he may be the successor, no harm; but anyone else can give samādhi. Śrīla Svāmīji told me to do it, but it may be that another Ācārya has not told his successor:

”You should give me samādhi”

Has Śrīla Purī Mahārāja himself told?

I don’t know that he has told like this.

[Satyarūpa Didi] I want to know if this is true or not.

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] I think it is not true.  His successor is Bodhāyana Mahārāja, who is a good devotee, very humble and polite. But at the time the samādhi was given, he was not there. He was in another country. Others gave it. My god-brothers came, and others came, and they all gave samādhi. Then, after some time, Bodhāyana Mahārāja came; there is no harm in that. It is not siddhānta that he who gives samādhi will be the successor. So many devotees came from Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha, and others also came to give samādhi to Śrīla Bhakti Pramoda Purī Mahārāja. But they will not be the successor. His successor will be his own disciple in whom he has belief, and to whom he has told.

Usually the Guru never tells who will be his successor. Śrīla Svāmīji never told. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Prabhupāda never told who will be his successor. He knew that:

“Someone will come who is very near and dear to me, and who knows all siddhānta.”

No one can ever make anyone Guru by appointment. His own qualities will make him Guru.

[Satyarūpa Didi] Śrīla Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja did not nominate a successor.

So how did it come about that Ananta Vāsudeva became his successor?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] It is not the transcendental line, that anyone can make someone else a Guru. It may be that if one is so qualified, Gurudeva selects him and says:

“After me you will be successor”

This is one line. The more essential and prominent line, however, is that anyone serving Gurudeva totally,  preaching so much in his line after his departure, and  making his Gurudeva very prominent, he is successor. He will preach the same line. Prabhupāda Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura never told my Gurudeva:

“You should be my successor”


But he became so, as did Śrīla Svāmī Mahārāja. My Gurudeva never appointed me; yet I became so I am preaching all over the world, and so many are accepting me. So it depends on quality. Śrīla Prabhupāda was not made by anyone, and he became prominent all over the world. Rāmānuja was not made Ācārya.

Do you know Rāmānuja?

He took sannyāsa himself, and Madhvācārya also did this. He was not given sannyāsa by anyone else. So we should follow this thought.

Who made Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī Ācārya?

Śrī Vyāsadeva never said:

“You are my successor”

Kṛṣṇa will arrange that those who do bhakti will be Ācārya.

Śrīla Svāmīji knew what were their qualifications—that they may fall down, they may give him poison or so many things. So he never declared anyone as his successor.

[Satyarūpa Didi] When the time comes that you must depart, in what way would you like to see things continue?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] I know the system from the beginning. No one made Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi Ācārya. He who manifests very good qualities, and who serves his Gurudeva—he is Ācārya. I am not worried about this. If I will see someone, I will select. Otherwise, without being selected they will become Ācāryas themselves, by their qualities, and all are bound to obey them. We know that Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī is our complete root Ācārya, and he never initiated anyone. Still, all accept him.

[Satyarūpa Didi] So we can get śikṣā from Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] Yes. This is the eternal line. No one ever knew that I will preach all over the world, and glorify my Guru, and the whole paramparā, and this parakīyā mood. But Kṛṣṇa can do anything, even from any dry straw. So I am unqualified, but still my Gurudeva accepted me; all accepted me as Ācārya. I never thought:

”I am Ācārya.”


I have no such abhimāna (self-conception). I am not Ācārya, but all are telling me that I am.

What to do?

[Satyarūpa Didi] How do you feel about the Australian devotees?
What are your feelings about them?
What is your experience and how do you feel the preaching is growing here?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] I know that in all preaching the root is Śrīla Bhaktivedanta Svāmī Mahārāja Prabhupāda.  Only by his mercy is everyone preaching. When I preach, all know that:

“Oh, he is in line of Śrīla Svāmīji’s; he is preaching in his line.”

Everywhere in the world, except in India, Svāmīji did this; being one hand of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Ṭhākura. He also did it in India, but in India there were others as well.

I know that everywhere there are so many disciples of various sections—like Govinda Mahārāja, myself, Śrīla Purī Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhakti Vallabhā Tīrtha Mahārāja. All are making disciples, but I think we are in one family. Now I see however, that so many sections don’t like each other. They fight among themselves, and also with others. They even fight with their wives and divorce them. And some disciples can divorce their Guru also. But we don’t like that. We should try to help each other.

There is some envy. The disciples of certain Gurus never come to me. They fear somewhat, but I don’t fear. I know that they are in one family and they should come. They are fearing that:

“Oh, when he will come, he will take all my disciples and attract them.”

But really I don’t want to do that. I want to help all, as a Śikṣā-Guru helps. They should understand this, and they should not quarrel; otherwise this preaching will come to some harm.

We should think in this way:

“He can help my disciples, and I should help his disciples.”

During Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s time there was no division like this—that he should come and he should not come. All used to come to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; all used to come to Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī. I want it to be like that.

Though I know that sometimes disciples may be weak and give up bhakti, I want to help them so that again they can serve. And I am doing that. I am again calling those who left, and I am giving them inspiration to serve their deva. I am helping without consideration of caste or creed.

[Satyarūpa Didi] Why is this fear here?
Why is there fear?

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] Because of ignorance. In Vaiṣṇavism there should be no envy. That is why, although ISKcON is very big, there is a lack of harmony among the members. They don’t give honour to their elders, and elders are not giving all their love and affection to juniors. We should try. Otherwise a dark age will come again, and everything will be ruined. I think that if I was not here, going here and there, then sahajiyā groups who think:

”Oh, we are Caitanyaites,”

Would increase.  I want a revolution like this: we should come to the real path, in the real sense.  Kṛṣṇa will arrange for anyone to come after me; and after that anyone else will come, and this will not be ruined. The world will be ruined, but this is eternal. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said that this line is eternal. Someone from any group will come.

[Satyarūpa Didi] You mentioned that Rāmānuja took sannyāsa by himself.

[Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] Himself. Rāmānujācārya wanted to take sannyāsa and preach our bhakti cult. Before he arrived at the feet of his Guru, however, his Guru passed away. All of his disciples were taking him on a palanquin, to give him samādhi. Rāmānujācārya met them on the way and asked:

“Where are you going and whom are you carrying on the palanquin?”

They replied:

“He is Yāmunācārya and he has passed away from this world”

Rāmānuja requested:

“Stop here. I want to see Gurudeva.”

When they set down the palanquin, he asked:

“Why are his three fingers closed?”

It is a general rule that when someone takes birth his fingers are closed, and when he passes away his fingers are open. Seeing the closed fingers Rāmānuja was surprised:

“Why are these fingers in an unnatural way?”

All were surprised, and told him:

“None of us had seen this before”

Then Rāmānujācārya said:

“I shall take sannyāsa right now”

The first finger opened and became straight. Then he said:

“I shall compose a commentary on Vedanta Sutra”

The second finger opened and became straight. Then he said

“O Gurudeva I will preach your mission everywhere. I will preach all over India, distribute my books, and defeat the māyāvāda philosophy”

When the last finger became straight, Rāmānujācārya proclaimed:

“My Gurudeva is not dead. He is still here. He is in Samadhi”

The disciples told him:

”You should give him Samadhi”

Rāmānuja took sannyāsa there, at that time, and then the disciples took him to give samādhi. After this Rāmānujācārya went to the temple of Śrī Raṅgam and served all his elder god-brothers for 12 years.

He served some for one month, some for two months, some three months, four month etc. And he received blessings and all knowledge from all of them. After this he became ācārya. (Rāmānujācārya was so qualified. He wanted to teach the whole world that an advanced devotee is not proud.) 

  • 2 personas les gusta esto.
  • Rama Kānta Dāsa [Satyarūpa Didi] When the time comes that you must depart, in what way would you like to see things continue?

    [Śrīla Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja] I know the system from the beginning. No one made Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi Ācārya. He who manifests very good qualities, and who serves his Gurudeva—he is Ācārya. I am not worried about this. If I will see someone, I will select. Otherwise, without being selected they will become Ācāryas themselves, by their qualities, and all are bound to obey them. We know that Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī is our complete root Ācārya, and he never initiated anyone. Still, all accept him.
  • Gaura Kishora Das na jani bhakti, karme jadmati, padechi sansar ghore, gopinath ami ki doshe doshi, !! Jai ho
  • Rama Kānta Dāsa Gopīnātha, mana je pāgala mora, nā māne śāsana,
    sadā acetana, viṣaye ro’yeche ghora
  • Gaura Kishora Das vimal vaishnave, rati upjibe, vasana haoibe shina, hari hari, kabe mora habe hena din ?

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