sábado, 20 de octubre de 2012

1013JC - Extend this prohibition on management beyond the sannyasis



SRI

NRSIMHADEVA

MULTIPLY


juancas

SRI NRSIMHADEVA - MULTIPLY

Creado por juancas  del 20 de Octubre del 2012


CONTENIDO

  1. 1013JC - Extend this prohibition on management beyond the sannyasis
  2. 1014JC - Initiation vows, are they meant for all?
  3. 1015JC - Suggestion about change of standard for guru-worship
  4. 1016JC - Nama Acharya Haridas Thakur
Extend this prohibition on management beyond the sannyasis
Nov 3, '07 3:53 AM
para Todos

Extend this prohibition on management beyond the sannyasis?


 
Bir Krishna Swami: Thank you for the thoughtful letter and quote. Actually we should extend this prohibition on management beyond the sannyasis. Those who are in a brahminical role should not be managing either.
Just as we have seen sannyasis/gurus deviate from having many allurements presented to them we have seen even more temple presidents deviate because they had both managerial and spiritual authority over others. How many temple presidents have succumbed to illicit sex with devotees in the temple or have succumbed to financial irregularities.
In most other religious organizations (non-ISKCON) the management structure is completely separate from the ecclesiastical structure. For example I have friends who are ministers but they do not run the church. The church is run by a board. They simply preach.
Because they are in that position without any conflicts of interest, people trust them; because their only interest is in the welfare of the people they are counseling/helping.
This is different from our situation where the temple president is also “in charge” of the temporal lives of the devotees. So, naturally he has a hard time balancing both positions and the temporal responsibilities tend to keep him from being 100% focused on the spiritual lives of the people he is responsible for.
In temples that I visit the devotees are begging to have someone who they can take shelter of, because they can’t fully trust someone who is managing and who uses his spiritual position to carry out his managerial desires.
Also the temple president begins to think that he is possessor or at least controller of the assets that are aquired due to his preaching, and he becomes bewildered by women, and money.
If you examine the history of ISKCON you will see this is a constantly recurring phenomenon amongst temple presidents.
Hence my proposal is that we separate these two roles (management and brahminical functions) on all levels.
This of course is what Srila Prabhupada was talking about when said that he wanted Varnashrama instituted.
Let sannyasis and brahmans be free to help people without any managerial burdens or allurements.
·>> In the begining stages of ISKCON, the EMERGENCY ERA, Srila Prabhupada HAD to give the administration to the most spiritually advanced. But it was meant to be a ’short term measure’ to get the mission going. Verification of that is when Srila Prabhupada first created the GBCs his vision was grihasthas only. But to cater to the emergency era he positioned mostly sannyasis. But now it is clear that it would be better to implement Srila Prabhupada’s original idea of grihastas only on the GBC, and not sannyasis who could then just concentrate on remaining pure, preaching, and taking on disciples with far less risk of becoming spiritually weakened.
Unless the structure is changed to exclude gurus and sannyasis from management then the incident/s referred to by Kripamoya Prabhu will keep on re-occuring and we will simply remain a laughing stock repeatedly.

The structure HAS to be changed. Guruship and managing big money, properties, and very intensive managerial responsibilities just simply do not go together. Even Srila POrabhupada himself was planning how he could avoid managerial responsibilities so that he could be just our Jagat Guru.

Its time to change the structure, with some padlocks as it were, as we envision Srila Prabhupada would do. Otherwise it is not a question of IF such absolutely terrible disruptions to the preaching will occur again - but only a question of WHEN.

ad
Trivikrama Swami: Thanks Maharaja for your input here. One problem that comes up for those who “simply preach”, is that the results of their preaching is often mismanaged. The good preacher will naturally attract resources. It can be very very discouraging to see these resources squandered by incompetent temple managers. Therefore the temptation to manage the results of one’s own preaching is great.
Another point is that Srila Prabhupada both preached and managed. Of course the objection will be that Srila Prabhupada could do that but we can’t. Nevertheless he did often say; “Do as I am doing”, and he sometimes said for one who has strong sadhana management will be at their finger tips.
Ultimately everyone will have to pass the test of Maya. Board members who run the church are also found to misuse their authority, especially by getting envolve in petty politics, which seems to be an all prevading problem in Iskcon.
Ys TS
 
This entry was posted on Thursday, October 11th, 2007 at 10:26 am 

Recent problems

 
Continuing the discussion from here:
Bhaktivaibhava Swami: My humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Trivikrama Swami: Thanks Maharaja for your input here. One problem that comes up for those who “simply preach”, is that the results of their preaching is often mismanaged. The good preacher will naturally attract resources. It can be very very discouraging to see these resources squandered by incompetent temple managers. Therefore the temptation to manage the results of one’s own preaching is great.
Another point is that Srila Prabhupada both preached and managed. Of course the objection will be that Srila Prabhupada could do
that but we can’t. Nevertheless he did often say; “Do as I am doing”, and he sometimes said for one who has strong sadhana
management will be at their finger tips. Ultimately everyone will have to pass the test of Maya. Board members who run the
church are also found to misuse their authority, especially by getting envolve in petty politics, which seems to be an all prevading
problem in Iskcon.
Taking all the other comments and the above one into consideration, I feel we are entering into social studies of ISKCON, which is long overdue. Also you might definitely have different situations in different parts of the world. Some Sannyasa-guru GBC’s might manage vigorously, some not. I feel uneasy, if a GBC member is primarily seen as a manager. I did not get this impression when I studied Srila Prabhupada’s expectations of the duties of a GBC member. Srila Prabhupada gave a lot of managerial power to local TP’s. The important function of a GBC member is to some great extent of a spiritual nature, to have a strong preaching spirit, to inspire devotees, and that of being the watchdog for ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to be governed by dynamic preachers and spiritually advanced members.
To make it short, rather going into the extreme of heading toward “no more sannyasis and guru’s should be GBC members”, I would prefer to analyze objectively the performance of our GBC members, begin to replace those who need to be replaced, if those are being identified who can fill their place. I also noticed that often GBC members are getting too much involved with management due to lack of managerial support in their zone. This requires more studies to discover the reasons for the apathy of many younger devotees to take on serious managerial responsibilities in ISKCON.
One serious problem I see is that a sannyasi or guru gets too much involved in being harshly criticized in the performance of his GBC duties, but this is not only a problem for sannyasis or gurus, it will be a similar problem for those, who are not sannyasis or gurus. It is simply a lack of proper culture, Vaisnava culture. I feel that we really need to get seriously involved in the social studies of ISKCON to start improving the relationship between junior and senior devotees, the performance of GBC members, creating facilities for junior members to take up serious managerial responsibilities, etc.
I don’t want to drag this on too long. These are just some thoughts off my chest.
Yhs, AC. Bhaktivaibhava Swami
Bir Krishna das Goswami:
>Ultimately everyone will have to pass the test of Maya. Board members who
>run the church are also found to misuse their authority, especially by
>getting envolve in petty politics, which seems to be an all prevading
>problem in Iskcon.
Yes, but they don’t misuse their eclesiastical positions, which is an abuse and cheating. If you do a study of all the TP’s we have had you will see that most of them succumbed to maya due to having both positions (mangerial and ecclesiastical).
Wherever I go people are begging for someone to be there for them, someone they can trust to not misuse his spiritual position for managerial purposes.
Ajamila dasa:
Commenting on the points raised by Trivikrama Swami and Bhaktivaibhava Swami, the essential point that often gets overlooked, as was raised here by Kripamoya Prabhu which I believe started this thread, is that intense and very time consuming GBC managerial ‘work’ (not sadhana) weakens most guru’s ability to maintain the high standard of purity and knowledge required to be at least a fixed guru. To be a guru for many disciple is in itself a FULL time job!! So many disciples of GBC gurus complain of neglect. Why? Because the guru is stuck in big and very taxing time consuming management. And while trying to do BOTH, such a guru becomes much less effective in both and so both duties suffer.
Evidence is there that Srila Prabhupada originally wanted grihastha only GBCs. He reverted owing to the emergency, but are we still in the ’same’ emergency? No. Of course grihastas can also deviate and squander and the like but at least it is far more easier to ‘hire and fire’ and regulate grihastas who don’t have disciples whom they can try to take with them. To equate a grihasta GBC who has no disciples with a guru GBC who has disciples is nonsensical. If a grihasta GBC deviates and is removed, the Society might hardly notice it. But if a guru GBC deviates and is removed all hell lets loose on the Society and in the lives of the guru’s disciples like an ISKCON earthquake.
Unless we revert back to Srila Prabhupada’s originally intended system of grihasta only GBCs then, as I said before, it is not a question of IF there will be more GBC gurus falling down again and again and yet again and ruining so much good and sincere preaching but it is only a question of WHEN. The system has to be changed back to Srila Prabhupada’s originally intended system.
ys
ad
Kanti dd:
Hare Krishna prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Are we making the assumption here that only sannyasis are fit to be gurus?
Bhaktivaibhava Swami:
Ajamila prabhu’s comment is well taken also. Thank you!
Yhs, AC. BVaiSwami
Sakarshan Das Adhikari:
It is interesting to note in regards to the question raised by Kanti devi dasi, “Are we making the assumption here that only sannyasis are fit to be gurus?”, that according to the pancaratra injunction only grihastha brahmanas can initiate disciples, not sannyasis. It was Lord Caitanya’s principle that anyone who knows the science of Krishna can be a spiritual master which opened the door for sannyasis to also initiate disciples.
What is the evidence? Srila Prabhupada states,
“According to the pancaratra injunction, only a householder brahmana can initiate. Others cannot. When a person is initiated, it is assumed that he has become a brahmana; without being initiated by a proper brahmana, one cannot be converted into a brahmana. In other words, unless one is a brahmana, he cannot make another a brahmana. A grhastha-brahmana partaking of the varnasrama-dharma institution can secure various types of paraphernalia to worship Lord Visnu through his honest labor. Actually, people beg to be initiated by these householder brahmanas just to become successful in the varnasrama institution or to become free from material desires. It is therefore necessary for a spiritual master in the grhastha-asrama to be a strict Vaisnava. A spiritual master from the sannyasa order has very little opportunity to perform arcana, Deity worship, but when one accepts a spiritual master from the transcendental sannyasis, the principle of Deity worship is not at all neglected. To implement this conclusion, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave us His opinion in the verse kiba vipra kiba nyasi, etc. This indicates that the Lord understood the weakness of society in its maintaining that only a grhastha-brahmana should be a spiritual master. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu indicated that it does not matter whether the spiritual master is a grhastha (householder), a sannyasi or even a sudra. A spiritual master simply must be conversant in the essence of the sastra; he must understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
From Purport to CC Madhya 4.111
YHS SDA
Trivikrama Swami:
> Yes, but they don’t misuse their eclesiastical positions, which is an
> abuse and cheating. If you do a study of all the TP’s we have had you will
> see that most of them succumbed to maya due to having both positions
> (mangerial and ecclesiastical).
>
> Wherever I go people are begging for someone to be there for them, someone
> they can trust to not misuse his spiritual position for managerial
> purposes.
But that is exactly what the local GBC person is suppose to correct, HE should be that person who everyone trusts. Not that he manages the temple but he uses his good office to assist those who are managing. He speak to the TP and tries convince him, by concerned preaching, that his methods of managing are counter productive. He covens istagosties and other meeting to try to resolve the difficulties in his zone.
I don’t see why a sannyasi can’t do this kind of work.
One problem is that the GBC’s have too many temples in their zone to be able to provide this kind of service. Or they don’t want to assist like this, for what ever reason, but this is the job discription that Srila Prabhupada gave for his GBC zonal secretaries.
Ys TS
Mahadyuti das:
> I don’t see why a sannyasi can’t do this kind of work.
Prabhupada also didn’t see why not:
“My Dear Madhudvisa, Please accept my blessings. I have received your letter from Sydney dated May 30, 1972, wherein you have expressed some hesitation to become the GBC Secretary for the Pacific zone. Actually you may be misunderstanding the present position or policy of this GBC. I have instructed all of the GBC men to give up their staying in one place and to remain always constantly traveling throughout their zones from temple to temple. Recently, I have given Sannyasa order of life to Rupanuga, Satsvarupa, and Bali Mardan, and I have made Brahmananda the GBC man for Africa, and I wanted that you should be GBC man for South Pacific zone. So being Sannyasi is no hindrance for being also GBC. In fact, the duties of the GBC men are now to be just like the duties of the Sannyasis. I want that the GBC men should leave the management of the individual centers to the local presidents and concentrate themselves upon preaching work. They should be constantly traveling from one center to another center to see how the students are learning and to give whatever advice is necessary for improving the temple standards. In addition, the GBC men will open new centers, distribute literature, and they should always be traveling with a sankirtana party to accompany them. So practically there is no difference between the Sannyasi duty and the GBC duty, and because you are my veteran disciple and you have had very good experience, I think there will be no trouble for you to accept the GBC position,…” (12 June 1972)
> One problem is that the GBC’s have too many temples in their zone
…and insufficient numbers of regional secretaries to assist them, as well as apparently too much time spent on their pet projects, which often have little (if anything) to do with nourishing the devotees and temples in their zones.
Mahatma das:
>To be a guru for many disciple is in itself a FULL time job!!
>So many disciples of GBC gurus complain of neglect. Why?
>Because the guru is stuck in big and very taxing time consuming management.
>And while trying to do BOTH, such a guru becomes much less effective in both and so both duties suffer.
When I look at this reality I often think of the saying it takes a village to raise a child. Putting the sole burden on one guru to save hundreds or thousands of disciples is often not realistic, especially when they are spread all over the world. They need help from their Godbrothers, many of whom are more than qualified to act as siksa gurus for those disciples. Even if this is going on a little bit, it needs to be more organized, more official, more encouraged, more of the “village saving the disciple,” and those who are not diksa gurus who are doing the saving need to be recognized as such. My concern is that if so much emphasis is put on the diksa guru, and if there is no organized effort for gurus to have teams that are helping them “deliver” their disciples, the siksa guru will always remain an enigma no matter how much we encourage it, talk about it, try to establish it, etc.
Part of the problem with the system, as I see it, is that a new devotee will never think, “I need to find a siksa guru.” They will only be encouraged to find a diksa guru. Even thought they are encouraged to see Srila Prabhupada as their siksa guru, they should also be encouraged to develop meaningful and long term relationships with other devotees who could act as their siksa gurus.
In 1978 when Ramesvara stated initiating (I lived in LA), my gut reaction was this may be your particular service, but we are all in this together, much the same way as a TP has responsibility to manage and maintain the temple but all the temple devotees in some way share that responsibility. A TP he might say this is my temple, but it really isn’t his temple. In the same way a guru might say these are “my disciples,” but they really belong to Iskcon and Prabhupada, although he is taking responsibility for them. If we worked in this way it could solve many of the problems that the isolated guru do it all on his own program has created .
>”Are we making the assumption here that only sannyasis are fit to be gurus?”,
It’s healthy to look at our assumptions every so often, not only about this topic but in other areas. Sometimes we don’t believe we make certain assumptions but the systems we create may foster the very assumptions we believe we don’t make.
>One problem is that the GBC’s have too many temples in their zone
>to be able to provide this kind of service. Or they don’t want to assist like this,
>for what ever reason, but this is the job discription
>that Srila Prabhupada gave for his GBC zonal secretaries.
Maybe the GBC’s feel the need to manage because not all the TP’s in their zone are doing a good job. In Prabhupada’s day there were many TP’s who managed far better than their GBC’s. Or maybe it’s also that the TP’s want them to manage. If we had well qualified TP’s that would remove much of the management burden of the GBC’s, and if someday a GBC could have a qualified manager working with them, that person could handle managerial issues that TP’s couldn’t deal with. Then the GBC could focus on his real job, maintaining spiritual standards.
Your servant,
Mahatma das
Dhanesvara das:
>But that is exactly what the local GBC person is suppose to correct, HE
>should be that person who everyone trusts. Not that he manages the temple
>but he uses his good office to assist those who are managing.
>One problem is that the GBC’s have too many temples in their zone to be
>able to provide this kind of service. Or they don’t want to assist like
>this, for what ever reason, but this is the job discription that Srila
>Prabhupada gave for his GBC zonal secretaries.
Thank you all Maharaja’s for your comments. Indeed, it always seemed to me that Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to do exactly what he was doing — visiting the temples to enliven the devotees, and see that the principles were being strictly followed. And as Bir Krishna Maharaja added, simply to “be there” for devotees in need.
As far as there being too many temples to provide such service we would do well to not only make some plan to deal with that, but to plan ahead. Iskcon continues to grow and will continue to grow. If there is too much to do now, what will the problems be like in another generation? We would do well to anticipate such growth and planning for the present and the future.
As Trivikrama Maharaja suggested sannyasis can do this work whether they are GBC or not. And the ranks of sannyasis should continue to increase in coming years as our demographics mature.
ys
Dhanesvara Das
Kavicandra Swami:
Pardon me for butting in. I just want to check some historical facts.
1. When Srila Prabhupada established the GBC how many sannyasis were in the movement.?
2. In 1972 or 73 (pardon my memory) Srila Prabhupada offered sannyas to all the members of the GBC. I was in LA when four of them, (Hrdayananda, Bali Mardan, Satsvarupa and Rupanuga) took sannyasa. Srila Prabhupada did not ask any of them to give up their GBC work.
3. When HH Tamal Krsna Goswami wanted to take sannyas Srila Prabhupada told me that he would have to relinquish his GBC position. I saw that as a test of his determination. Shortly after his accepting Sannyasa, Srila Prabhupada again made him GBC.
Another question.
The GBC is supposed to travel and visit temple. I seem to hear the the GBC reps should be householders. I wonder how many householders are able to leave house and family for extended periods of time to visit temples. My recall is that Srila Prabhupada wanted grhasthas to run (manage) the temples, and sannyasis to travel and preach (the duties of the GBC).
In case, I feel that we need to inspire more devotees from all ashrams to take up more responsibility.
Dhanesvara das:
Dear Kavicandra Maharaja, et. al,
My impression was that the discussion was about “retired” grihasthas (children grown and gone) taking up active service as GBC. When I first suggested that the Vanaprasthas take up the role of GBC you commented “We have been waiting for this.” And in my discussions with you this summer you said we need more gurus and you encouraged me in that way. Our vanaprashtas-cum-sannyasis can also take up that service.
continues…

Keeping Srila Prabhupada at the center

224 Views
Continuing from here:
Deena Bandhu:
The following was sent to me by Brhat Mrdanga Prabhu who was TP of Vrindavan at the time. Provides some stimulating food for thought in this discussion.
—–
Srila Prabhupada’s letter to Kirtanananda, 2/11/67: “I wish that each and every Branch shall keep their independent identity and cooperate keeping the Acarya in the centre. On this principle we can open any number of Branches all over the world. The Ramakrishna mission works on this principle and thus as organization they have done wonderfully.”
Dear Deena Bandhu Prabhu
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Recently (September 2003) I visited the RK mission HQ in Delhi. Here’s some information I gathered of how they keep RK in the center. The system was created by Vivekananda. When you do have some time, please let me know your thoughts.
Thank you. Hare Krishna.
Your servant Brhat-mrdanga das
——
Line of spiritual authority: RK is the guru/god for everyone - Board of 18 Sannyasi Trustees (World Headquarters at Belurmath, Calcutta) - President is Spiritual Head (does not travel), a sannyasi appointed by Board of Trustees to hold office for two years, is empowered to give sannyasa and diksa on behalf of RK - assisted by three Vice-Presidents, who can only give diksa, travel to different centers for spiritual guidance and initiations.
Line of managerial authority: Board of 18 Sannyasi Trustees - General Secretary (does not travel), a sannyasi appointed by Board of Trustees to hold office for two years, responsible for processing applications and posting of positions in different centres - four Assistant General Secretaries, sannyasis, travel to different centers for managerial accountability and monitorship, including finances.
The line of spiritual authority may overide decisions of the line of managerial authority in consultation with the Board of Trustees. The General Secretary usually is promoted to become a future Vice-President so that the spiritual authority has managerial experience, to ensure harmony between both lines of authority.
The head of a center, a sannyasi, is known as the Secretary. He is assisted by the congregation in managing the center.
Recruitment Policies for residing in the asrama:
1. Must be a graduate, must be between 25 to 30 years old, must have good health (with doctors’ reports), accommodating temperament.
2. Must accept teachings of RK and V - study at home - will have to pass an examination (in English) on the teachings.
3. Join local center on a pre-probation basis for one year - tested to be self-motivated and self-responsible.
4. Thorough health examination (medical-check up) with with RK mission doctors.
5. Sent to General Secretary at Headquarters, Belurmath as probationer for three years for study, training in seva and temple services.
6. Two years rigorous leadership training.
7. Takes formal vows (initiation) as brahmacari - name change on V’s birthday.
8. Posted to a center (no choice) by General Secretary. Each center has a maximum quota, eg. Delhi has a quota of 10 brahmacaris. Their services are overseeing the new recruits, temple altar services, counselling congregation, preaching, etc. They are not involved in general management and finances.
9. After serving for the next four years, a brahmacari may apply to the President for entering into the sannyasa asrama.
10. On approval, he takes sannyasa vows on RK’s birthday and must associate with senior sannyasis at Belurmath for two years.
11. He is then posted to serve as an Assistant-Secretary at a center.
Falldown from the sannyasa asrama: Sent to Himalayas to perform tapasya as determined by the Board of Trustees - then accepted as part of the congregation. If he does not accept the decision of the Board of Trustees, then he is excommunicated from RK Mission society. This type of decision is sent to all centers to be placed on notice boards.
—–
In service of Srimati Vrinda Devi, Deena Bandhu dasa
Malati dd:
Falldown from the sannyasa asrama: Sent to Himalayas to perform tapasya as determined by the Board of Trustees - then accepted as part of the congregation. If he does not accept the decision of the Board of Trustees, then he is excommunicated from RK Mission society. This type of decision is sent to all centers to be placed on notice boards.
Sounds like a good plan…when do we begin?
Bhakti Caru Swami:
Dear Dinabandhu Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you very much for sharing this very well-researched and well-documented letter from Brihat Mridanga Prabhu. Whatever the philosophy and teachings of Ramakrishna Mission may be, we cannot deny their obvious success in keeping their institution together. The key to their success is in keeping Ramakrishna as the head of the institution even after his disappearance. Srila Prabhupada also clearly admitted that they have done wonderfully.
To draw a parallel let us also consider Srila Prabhupada’s emphasis on his position as the Founder-Acaray of ISKCON, and his emphasis on expressing our love for him through our cooperation. Now it is up to us how we are going to translate those instructions and apply them in the context of ISKCON by recognizing His Divine Grace as THE SPIRITUAL HEAD of ISKCON FOR ALL TIME and THE CENTER OF ALL OUR ACTIVITIES.
Once again, thank you very much. Please convey my heartfelt thanks to Brihat Mridanga Prabhu also.
Your servant
Bhakti Charu Swami
Babhru das:
Please accept my heartfelt obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Like others, I find Srila Prabhupada’s comment to Kirtanananda about the Ramakrishna Mission interesting. However, I think we need to exercise some caution here and not let ourselves get too excited at one comment among the many he made about this group. Consider that there’s probably only one other instance where he concedes that they’re “popular,” and that’s in the context of cautioning us to avoid criticizing them directly because it’s too inflammatory in some circles in West Bengal. There a a good many other places where he criticizes the RK Mission for its ineffectiveness, sometimes pointing out that they had only established a handful of centers in the US over 80 years, and that those are mostly empty, whereas he established dozens in just a couple of years.
And we do need to consider the context, always. In that 1967 letter, the recipient was Kirtanananda, who had only very recently returned to ISKCON after, as Prabhupada repeatedly observed during the disturbance K caused, deciding that he was better than the acharya. We should also consider that the RK Mission has kept Ramakrishna in the center largely by deifying him. That’s not something Srila Prabhupada would condone in ISKCON, as anyone who actually remembers the fallout from the 1970 Janmastami meeting in New Vrindavan should be aware.
My intention is not to pour cold water on any discussion of Srila Prabhupada’s central position in ISKCON, but to suggest a little caution. I feel convinced that his central position is inherent in ISKCON and that some of our attempts to “place” or “keep” him there may seem a little artificial. It’s best done by our own honest progressive dedication to serving his desire in the company of like-minded devotees. We glorify Srila Prabhupada much better by our character than by all the big temples and grand Vyasasanas, as nice as they are.
Yours in service, Babhru das
Ajamila das:
Babru’s thoughtful points are well taken. But Srila Prabhupada being the centre is a different issue from the ‘recent problems’ issue.
Unless a ’safer’ more accountable guru structure is implemented, a structure that makes it most unattractive to deviate (the current system gives far too much scope) then the recent problems will only be expected re-occurence.
It would be so nice if for say the next ten years no gurus fell. Imagine how that would silence our critics and boost the preaching incredibly. Where there is a will there is definitely a way - dadami buddhi yogam … We pray the decision makers have the will, if not then that Krishna will give them the will.
ys
ad
Basu Ghosh Das:
Ajamila Prabhu: with all due respect, I don’t think - and I don’t think you think - that we can legislate that there be “no falldowns”.
It will happen. We should remember that SP dealt with so many falldowns in various ways. With compassion, etc. There’s a purport in the Eighth canto, regarding the fight between Gajendra and the crocodile, that if a sannyasi cannot maintain his renunciation, then best he continue as a householder.
(exact quote can be found in the vedabase/folio, which as I write this [on a MAC] I don’t have access to…).
So, while I agree the GBC should be “strict”, there’s a way to deal with falldowns. Let the “fallen sannyasis” return to grihasta ashram, but continue to allow the GBC to “take the risks” that SP did to expand the preaching - specifically by inducting many new sannyasis (and there are a number of dedicated brahmacharis here in ISKCON India who ought to be so encouraged - some have been brahmacharis for 15-20 years now!)
That the GBC hasn’t dealt with the falldowns as SP did, well, it’s regretable, but I’m sure that’s open for debate by present and former members of the GBC as to how and why, etc., they’ve dealt with the problems in the past…
das, Basu Ghosh Das
Bhakti Purusottama Swami:
We have to be careful following their system. They put RK too much in
center. So much so they call him God. Not only they call him God, inside all
their new temples only RK is worshiped .
We have to balance.
Thank you very much.
Your humble servant
Bhakti Purusottama Swami
Ajamila das:
I was not addressing the issue of dealing with falldown aftermath but rather preventively as to how ISKCON’s guruship ’structure’ can be made ’safer’ so that guru falldowns can be at least minimised, and that it would be so nice if it was completely eliminated. You are right that complete elimination is probably not achievable but if that is almost achieved it will be a big boost for ISKCON’s reputation and preaching.
It appears that the issue of improving the guruship structure, which now averages almost an annual major calamity, is not being addressed seriously enough by the decision makers. That’s essentially what Im saying.
ys
ad
Mahatma das:
It would be so nice if for say the next ten years no gurus fell. Imagine how that would silence our critics and boost the preaching incredibly. Where there is a will there is definitely a way - dadami buddhi yogam … We pray the decision makers have the will, if not then that Krishna will give them the will.
It would be helpful for gurus to have a clear job description and also someone that they are accountable to. The general job description should be to become a pure devotee as soon as possible and while working on this be a perfect example of Krsna consciousness. It would be nice for gurus to have a better idea of what is expected of them, such as general guidelines in the areas of sadhana, behavior, relationships, cooperation, dedication to the mission, sastric knowledge, etc. I get the impression that the guru’s who fell down didn’t believe that their most important duty was to be an a good example.
If a guru is having trouble, where can he go, who can he talk to, what can he do? Is anything in place? Maybe it’s too hard for them to admit their weaknesses. Every guru needs some godbrothers around him who can take his temperature from time to time and who can give him a good slap when is goes off and also help him do whatever he needs to do to get back on track. Of course, the guru would have to be willing to submit to such godbrothers or some appointed group who he is accountable to.
Your servant, Mahatma das
Malati dd:
>We glorify Srila Prabhupada much better by our character than by all the big temples
While there is certainly truth to this statement, consider the response of His Divine Grace to Kuladri Prabhu, when he presented him with the plans for building the Palace in his honor: “Now they have understood.” In other words, the original plans, which were to build another temple, shifted to making a grand offering to Srila Prabhupada, who seemed to indicate that this was appropriate.
>It would be so nice if for say the next ten years no gurus fell.
That is up from the current 5 years now mentioned in the ISKCON Law Book!
Basu Ghosh das:
Translation
“Thereafter, because of being pulled into the water and fighting for many long years, the elephant became diminished in his mental, physical and sensual strength. The crocodile, on the contrary, being an animal of the water, increased in enthusiasm, physical strength and sensual power.”
Purport
In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with maya we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Krishna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krishna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnashrama-brahmana, kshatriya, vaishya, shudra, brahmacarya, grihasta , vanaprastha and sannyasa . Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa .
Ashvamedha gavalambham sannyasa pala-paitrikam devarena sutotpattim kalau pancha vivarjayet
[Cc. Adi 17.164]
(Brahma-vaivarta Purana)
From this we can understand that in this age the sannyasa-ashrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhushowed us an example in taking sannyasa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya advised Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyasa at an early age. For preaching we give young boys sannyasa , but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyasa . There is no harm, however, if one thinks that he is unfit for sannyasa ; if he is very much agitated sexually, he should go to the ashrama where sex is allowed, namely the grihasta-ashrama . That one has been found to be very weak in one place does not mean that he should stop fighting the crocodile of maya. One should take shelter of the lotus feet of Krishna, as we shall see Gajendra do, and at the same time one can be a grihasta if he is satisfied with sexual indulgence. There is no need to give up the fight. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhutherefore recommended, sthane sthita shruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. One may stay in whichever ashrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyasa . If one is sexually agitated, he can enter the grihasta-ashrama . But one must continue fighting. For one who is not in a transcendental position, to take sannyasa artificially is not a very great credit. If sannyasa is not suitable, one may enter the grihasta-ashrama and fight maya with great strength. But one should not give up the fighting and go away.
SB 8.2.31
Continues



Bhakti: effective?

308 Views
Continues from here:
Bhakti Vikasa Swami:
More from the past. These discussions have been going on for years.
From a Message from the GBC to the Devotees of ISKCON, Gaura Purnima, 1999:
The process of GBC reform was begun in earnest last year with detailed assessments being made of the individual GBC’s services. This year that work continued but focussed on the functioning of the Body itself. In an effort to improve its working effectiveness and generate better communications amongst ISKCON devotees, the GBC formed a Task Force to develop an ISKCON constitution and examine carefully suggested organizational and attitudinal adjustments within the Body. The Task Force will convene further discussions across the globe regarding the GBC’s mission, vision, membership, justice system, systems of checks and balances and decision making process.
A 1997 GBC proposal from the then Harikesa Maharaja:
Whereas Srila Prabhupada has established a spiritual and managerial governing body to oversee the activities that consist of:
a) Zones and temples
b) Zonal secretaries for each zones
c) Temple presidents to execute and implement resolutions
d) Regional bodies to facilitate the work of GBC and TPs
e) Ministers to
1) give knowledge, training, education and coach the leaders, and
2) to represent those leaders to the GBC
Whereas there is a need to bring those above aspects of management to a healthy and effective condition, the 4 following committees be formed to oversee the strengthening of
The 4 commission will be:
1) Committee functioning of the GBC body (brahmanas)
2) Committee functioning of the zones, temples, administration, management etc. (ksatriyas)
3) Committee functioning of socio/economical body. Communities, farms, VAD (vaisyas and sudras)
4) Committee functioning of Ministries to research, develop, recommend and implement.
And from the GBC Deputies in 1997, recommendations for the GBC:
HIGHEST RATED STRATEGIES
1. Leadership training systems
2. Restructure GBC to encourage and facilitate sadhus unencumbered by managerial responsibilities
3. Compact manageable zones visited frequently
4. Roles and responsibilities defined with performance evaluated annually
5. Feedback systems established / meeting and talking with the devotees
6. Prepare an ISKCON Constitution
VISION
· Trains/supports, TP’s, Treasurers, Secretaries, Pujaris, etc
· Challenges the devotees creating spontaneity and enthusiastic service
· Strong credible spiritual leaders based on their preaching
· Visibly perform strict sadhana 16 rounds, four regs/and ensure others follows
· Addressing main issues not side tracked by minor problems
· Work according to clearly defined job description
· Renounced/devoid of personal possessions
· Working within constitution/definition of ISKCON
· Represents Prabhupadas teaching and vision
· Education/training established as standard for all positions
· Noted for high competence and character internally and public
· Preachers/teachers importance of varna/ashrama engagement for healthy communities.
· Creates ministries/teams that handle problems issues training
· GBC should have compact/contiguous/manageable zone
· Should be intelligent to build team of experts/advisors
· Exemplary loving relationships between TPs and GBC that inspires community spirit amongst the devotees.
· Assist in establishing long term financial stability.
· Overseas corporate, financial and administration systems by appointing qualified officers.
· manages departments and projects and reports to GBC on monthly / quarterly / annually.
· Assisting and accomplishing regional development goals / master plan goal.
· Developing plan to replace GBC with qualified members.
· Ministries clearly defined as to purpose and relationship and GBC
· Leaders should have balance between individual and ISKCON heads.
OBSTACLES
· Guru / GBC maintaining too much control over disciples and money
· GBC lack committed assistance to fully carry out projects.
· GBC takes on too much responsibility
· Doing to much management.
· Confused as to whether GBC is management or spiritual leader no job description
· Not inclined to train or be trained
· Personal agendas are placed above the interest of the society.
· Lack of Vaishnava culture
· Lack of communication and association amongst themselves and managers
· The culture of disempowerment characterised by short sightedness, attachment to status quo.
· No GBC office that covers the basic ground work of ISKCON
· Inability to act decisively, to follow up resolutions
· Lack of vision
· Spiritual weakness
· Reactive, not proactive
· High spiritual standard but doesn’t manage well
· Too distant from ordinary devotees
· Insensitive to host culture within which they are preaching.
· Seen as impersonal by rank and file (GBC body)
· Poorly run meetings, lack of executive continuity
· Small problems deviate attention to main work of training, planning, guiding, preaching
· No motivation to define the institution / no urgency
· Unmanageable zones
· Young society.
STRATEGIES
· Evaluate GBC and all other leaders / yearly performance / remove from zone if not performing up to standard. Criteria has to be met to remain in position.
· Systematic planning of ISKCON expansion and growth.
· Select those who have interest in the job.
· Establish Leadership Academy for training GBC’s (leaders)
· change focus of GBC towards strategic issues
· Role and responsibilities should be clarified and defined
· GBC deals only with vision, spiritual standards.
· Managers deal with proposals creating resolutions for review by GBC.
· GBC executive established and officers in positions for 3 years.
· Administrative staff researches, implements and develops plans for GBC
· Agendas provide time out for study, association and training.
· Systems of surveying for determining members opinions / talk with the devotees
· Comprehensive Ministry system.
· Restructure GBC to encourage and facilitate sadhus unencumbered by managerial responsibilities
· Status of GBC Emeritus be given to above
· Team of qualified researchers that implement a vision of the GBC as such an attractive position that everyone wants to assist and participate.
· No GBC / Guru be allowed to accumulate significant funds / all funds to be managed by local authorities.
· No GBC / Guru should interfere in the working relationship between T.P. and Temple disciple
· Quarterly meetings between GBC and T.P.s to assess progress and problems and to find solutions
· Compact manageable zones visited consistently
· RGBs should have three members to increase association and competency
· Local GBC member should spend majority of their time in their zone
· International isthagosthi after meeting each year with all devotees
Much ISKCON-talk since the late ’70s has been about managerial systems and structures. Certainly organizational systems are required, and the best possible systems, suited to the needs of the organization, should be implemented. But even the best systems can be misused–as was even varnasrama-dharma, personally created by Krishna. This suggests that the real key to harmonious functioning lies not in systems alone. However good or bad the system they live in, actual devotees will tend to live harmoniously, due to their non-exploitive nature, and demons will tend to live disharmoniusly, due to their exploitive nature. Thus, as well as attempting to find an appropriate organizational formula for ISKCON, it is at least as important that individuals within it strive to attain purity in devotional service, as exemplified by the six Gosvamis, who were “dear to both the gentle and the ruffians.” Then, as more and more individuals actually exemplify Krishna consciousness, a spiritual culture is created.
This process has to be led by the leaders. Let ISKCON’s leaders lead by themselves cultivating deep taste for hearing and chanting, for these are the prime practices that nurture Krsna consciousness.
And who are ISKCON’s leaders?
When asked who would succeed him as the leader of the Krsna consciousness movement, Srila Prabhupada replied: “All of my disciples will take the legacy. If you want, you can also take it. Sacrifice everything. I — one — may soon pass away. But they are hundreds, and this movement will increase. It’s not that I’ll give an order: ‘Here is the next leader.’ Anyone who follows the previous leadership is a leader. I don’t make any distinction between Indian and European. All my disciples are leaders… as much as they follow purely. If you want to follow, then you can also lead. But you dont want to follow. ‘Leader’ means (one who is a first-class disciple. Evam parampara-praptam. One who is perfectly following. Our instruction is, guru mukha-padma-vakya. Do you know this? Ara na kariha mane asa. [My only desire is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from the lotus mouth of my spiritual master’]. To become a leader is not very difficult, provided one is prepared to follow the instructions of the bonafide guru.
BTG 13-01/02 1978
Bhaktarupa dasa:
> What happend to that proposal from 2001?
>
> It is very relevant to this thread. Yes and how much longer will it have
> to be chewed before it gets swallowed by the powers that be?
The proposal to accept in principle that sannyasis should not be on the GBC was overwhelmingly defeated by the GBC at the 2001 meeting. After this, the leadership in India, and perhaps other places as well, realized that if the GBC Body was going to be predominantly sannyasis and gurus, then the role of the GBC Body in the society would have to be morphed into something less “hands-on” through the GBC delegating powers to more local bodies. The GBC passed a comprehensive set of new rules in 2002 to start this process and the process has been going on, quite successfully in India at least, and the GBC Body seems intent on giving more and more importance to it.
> > Is this discussion “chewing the chewed”? Are we discussing issues that
> > are discussed perennially, with no apparent effect? See below, a paper
> > from 2001. (NB there is/was a GBC Restructure Conference on PAMHO.)
The GBC Restructure Conference was more or less a grass-roots effort and not an official GBC discussion forum.
Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das
Sankarshan Das Adhikari:
My Dear Devotees,
Please accept my humbles obeisances at your feet. All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.
I really have to thank His Holiness Bhakti Vikasa Swami for his brilliant observations. He has stated “it is at least as important that individuals within it strive to attain purity in devotional service..”
I would carry it a step further and say that it is far more important. Srila Prabhupada sometimes said that any system of government would be proper if it was Krishna conscious. This tells us that the managerial structure, although important, is not as important as the purity.
Several years ago after a temple president used his position to seduce one of my disciples I became convinced of the need to emphasize pure devotional service within ISKCON. When I started to do so I was shocked at the resistance I ran into from various ISKCON leaders.
My observation of ISKCON is that at the present time we are putting too much emphasis on managerial structures and not enough emphasis on pure devotional service. Of course, there is no doubt that we must intelligently organize ourselves as per Srila Prabhupada’s instructions. But we must always remember and realize that we will only experience personal happiness and only be successful as a movement in the revolutionization of planet earth so the extent that we can manifest pure devotional service.
Good management is a tool to use in Krishna’s service. It is not a replacement for pure devotional service. Srila Prabhupada said that if preaching is there, management will follow like a shadow. So if we always practice and preach pure bhakti to the greatest extent of our capabilities, ISKCON devotees throughout the world will become so inspired that managing them will be a piece of cake.
I hope this meets you all in the best of health and in enlivened, ecstatic moods.
Always your servant,
Sankarshan Das Adhikari
Ajamila das:
> The proposal to accept in principle that sannyasis should not be on the
> GBC was overwhelmingly defeated by the GBC at the 2001 meeting.
The key issue here is that a contributing or the ONLY factor with the past falldowns of numerous ISKCON gurus is that their PURITY was lost because of intense management and over endeavouring from which a taste for sadhana is lost and fall down arises.
Nectar of Instruction states: atyahara - intense over endeavour ‘vinasyati’ destroys one’s bhakti.
Management requires much endeavour, particularly when dealing with all the abnormal and insane things that occur in this world. This endeavour ‘definitely’ distracts a guru from sustaining a regular ‘taste’ for sadhana. When that happens to a guru it escalates into a falldown followed by all the immense society havoc that comes with it.
The issue here is NOT whether or not a sannyasi should be on the GBC, it is having a structure in which an ‘ISKCON guru’ is much more safely situated and is not over-burdened by BIG management and that he is always tasting love of God and passing the same to his disciples. The latter is the only business of a guru.
Even Srila Prabhupada was aspiring for the time when he did not have to deal with GBC management and that he could just translate books.
Management and guruship combined with little or no accountability brings with it immense opportunities (like those offered to a pop star) to enjoy and delight in the waves of material facilities, taranga rangani sic
(Visvanatha Chakarthy Thakur). A guru with many disciples gets taranga rangani thrown at him constantly, a chance to personally enjoy all the adoration and distinction, it is the ultimate test of renunciation. And if a guru is not tasting nectar from his sadhana then he will surely taste taranga rangani and soon end up in wreaking more havoc in ISKCON by falling down. Take management away from guruship and a guru has a much, much better chance of not falling down. It is as simple as that.
This is the heart of the recent problems.
It is undestandable that the vast majority of the GBC rejected the 2001 proposal for change because the vast majority of the GBC are gurus.
But it seems the vast majority of ISKCON members ‘want’ change in that area. And when there is no change of structure and the same guru falldown problem keeps regularly re-occuring then the integrity of the GBC’s ability to govern is seriously undermined.
I love and will always coperate with the GBC, because it is Srila Prabhupada’s creation and desire. Nothing personal or inimmical here at all. Like many others I just want to see a more pure and successful ISKCON. But ISKCON has a serious problem with regular guru fall downs and it needs to be seriously addressed, and it apears very little or nothing is being done.
ys
ad
Bhakti Vikasa Swami:
A major point in these discussions of management systems is finding ways to keep good folks good by protecting them from temptation and corruption.
Maybe we need to re-assess our cultural and social outlook. As falldown (often illicit sex between a man and a woman) is a major issue, it would seem pertinent to discuss social structures (not just for managers) that more strictly regulate male/female association than at present in ISKCON.
Once a devotee asked Srila Prabhupada, “We have the perfect philosophy, Krsna consciousness, and we have the perfect spiritual master, Your Divine Grace. Everything about Krsna consciousness is perfect, yet we always seem to have so many problems. Why?”
Srila Prabhupada replied, “Because the brahmacaris and sannyasis associate too much with women.”
(Told by Giriraja Maharaja)
Banu Swami:
The key issue here is that a contributing or the ONLY factor with the past falldowns of numerous ISKCON gurus is that their PURITY was lost because of intense management and over endeavouring from which a taste for sadhana is lost and fall down arises.
… one point is the purity may never have been there. Many devotees join with certain stubborn anarthas which are not dissolved by bhakti, because the anarthas themselves create aparadhas which prevent bhakti from dissolving the anarthas. and as a result bhakti is used to shelter those anarthas, which then have opportunity to remain dormant or grow in certain circumstances. the question is: how to handle those anarthas (complexes, dysfunctionality) when their very nature negates the bhakti process even after decades of practice.
Trivikrama swami:
No one had more anarthas then Jagai and Madhai but their anarthas didn’t negate their bhakti process. Bhakti is not subject to karma. The only thing required to be successful in the bhakti process is the sincere desire to follow the process.
Ys TS
Mahatma das:
It appears from the story that all their anarthas were removed by Lord Caitanya’s mercy at the time they surrendered (at least all their major anarthas), so this may not exactly address Bhanu Swami’s point.
Your servant,
Mahatma das
Nrsimhananda das:
I hope TS is right, because it’s the only hope that I have that the Holy Names alone can purify the heart despite my anarthas - at least, that’s the philosophical underpinning that I understood from the early days and sustained ever since. I’ve bet all my existential chips on that one concept which seemed so simple and sublime then as it does for me now. If it’s not true, don’t tell me! :)
Bhaktarupa das:
Very good philosophical analysis by Bhanu Maharaja. It is best not to conclude that someone fell down because their taste for sadhana was lost. In most cases there was never a real taste in the first place, only a shadow. Often we find that neophyte devotees follow sadhana mainly because they want to be accepted as a fixed up devotee or for some other material purpose.
But, if one does follow the sadhana process for some material purpose then in due course of time the anarthas will go away, although it may take lifetimes. That is the beauty of the process. The challenge for leaders is to have the discrimination to see what is shadow attachment and what is real attachment. If we promote a devotee with only shadow attachment as a new leader, then we are risking that the hidden anarthas will someday catch up with that leader and disrupt the bhakti process before the bhakti process has time to root out the anarthas. At the same time we can’t be too cautious in promoting new leaders because we need to expand the movement. It is a constant challenge.
My guess is that if we want to truly eliminate guru and sannyasi falldowns we will have to be extremely cautious in promoting devotees to those posts. More cautious than we are at present. But the problem is that this is not really the example set by Srila Prabhupada. He seemed to put a premium on preaching at the expense of some varieties of caution. And we do also, at present. Some may say it is following his example. Others may say it is imitation. What is required is to find a good balance. We don’t want to be too cautious that we hurt the preaching. And we don’t want to be reckless and risk that the devotees who come due to our preaching will later be discouraged and go away due to the falldown of leading devotees. A coolheaded analysis is required. What are the real benefits and risks of caution? What are the real benefits and risks of expansion? And we should not be sentimental about it. Our hearts go out to a devotee whose gurus fell down, but we also should realize that if we had been more cautious in the first place then that devotee might never have had the opportunity to be a part of Lord Caitanya’s movement at all.
Yes. The key in Trivikrama Maharaja’s statement is “sincere desire”. Jagai and Madhai were blessed because they fully surrendered. Not partially, conditionally, or artificially. Thus their anarthas were gone in a moment.
Same benefits are available to us if we fully surrender.
Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das
Kanti dd:
Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupda.
A few questions for the consideration of the body. Are we promoting gurus and sannyasis? Who is promoting? Are not both of these positions actually services that require a calling, not a promotion? If the GBC states they are not approving gurus, only submitting a no objection vote, where does the idea of promotion come in? Is it not this very idea of promotion that erodes the humility required to remain steady in the service of guru or sannyasi and even on the path of bhakti?
Is it proper to characterize this process as one that can be controlled by a cool headed analysis? Should it not be the disciple that makes the cool headed analysis, while attempting to become a qualified disciple? Were we qualified disciples before SP accepted us? Did SP’s compassion allow for such a cool headed analysis before he agreed to manifest Krsna’s mercy for the thousands who had the opportunity to surrender to Krsna in his life time and the hundreds of thousands who have had the opportunity, still by his mercy, since? Can our gurus and sannyasis reduce this mercy down to a cool headed analysis? Is there any anartha more powerful than bhakti or the mercy of the pure devotee? Are our endeavors anything other than an attempt to extend the mercy of the pure devotee to suffering jivas? Having extended that mercy, does it dissipate if the initiating guru has a misfortunate detour from the path of purity? Does SP not continue to extend his mercy to both the disciple and the fallen guru or sannyasi? Is it not humility that ultimately allows us to accept Krsna’s mercy and to cultivate a genuine taste for service and sadhana and ultimately bhakti? It may be obvious, but perhaps the conscious and systematic cultivation of humility along with service and sadhana would alleviate some of the problems we are experiencing.
yhs, Kdd
Dhanesvara das:
I think that purity cannot be lost due to management alone. Purity (and taste for sadhana) it seems to me can only be lost by contemplating the objects of the senses and developing a desire to enjoy them. Sense gratification and Krishna consciousness go ill together. If one is not receiving the taste from devotional service, and still has the tendency to enjoy the senses, then the devotee is in jeopardy of falldown. If however one has renounced the desire to be the enjoyer, and is fixed in being a servant, overendeavoring will only leave him hankering for transcendental association and hearing and chanting. I suggest that Bg 5.29 points to the fundamental causes of falldown: desiring to be the enjoyer, the proprietor, or the dearmost friend. And when one does not recognize Sri Krishna’s transcendental position, Krishna tells us that he must fall down, i.e., come to a position that matches his consciousness. Bg. 9.24
http://www.prabhupada.org/rama/?p=4111
1014JC - Initiation vows, are they meant for all? Initiation vows, are they meant for all?

Nov 3, '07 4:06 AM
para Todos


Initiation vows, are they meant for all?

 
Mahatma das: Dear Prabhus,
I am working with a team of devotees to prepare a course on vows, focused primarily on initiation and asrama vows, and would love to get your input. Specifically, it would be beneficial for participants to learn what has helped you keep your vows. This could be a particular devotional service or practice, an attitude, a state of mind, etc. or anything else you wish to offer that would give deeper insight into what has helped you keep your vows.
If you offer a particular service or practice as an example, it will help to also explain what has enabled you to steadily perform that service or practice.
If you ever had difficulty following your vows, knowing what caused you to fall and how you overcame your problems would be valuable knowledge to share. In this case, your name would be withheld.
This course is geared to both initiated and uninitiated devotees. I feel it is important to offer this kind of training and support and am confident your contribution will increase the value of the course. So, if at all possible, please take the time to send even a short answer.
If you’d like more information on the course, please visit http://www.bhagavatlife.com/
Continuing our discussion on vows, I would like your feedback about the following dilemma.
If someone is initiated and doesn’t eventually follow, since they are breaking their initiation vows it could be argued, based on statements Prabhupada made that the initiation has lost it’s meaning and therefore they are not connected (or to be a little softer we could say maybe they not connected well, or perhaps they are really in limbo until they reconnect by following their vows again).
Or if you want to take Prabhupada’s words at face value they are not even devotees, neither are they even gentleman. It can also be argued philosophically that if they don’t take initiation they are not connected to the disciplic succession. If for the sake of argument we accept this premise and the premise that if an initiate doesn’t follow his or her vows their initiation has no meaning, then we could conclude that most members of Iskcon are not connected to the disciplic succession because they are either not initiated or they don’t follow all their vows.
Of course, that sounds harsh. How can we say they are not connected? Isn’t initiation just a formality? Aren’t we all connected? Well, that’s a good question. And if we are all connected, why bother risking a big failure by taking initiation? If it’s just to belong and get a name, let’s give out names and three regs and 4 rounds - something that most everyone can do instead of giving a standard that most will never keep? Why set people up to fail?
And if we just give them 4 rounds and 3 principles, that will put them on par with many initiated devotees. So why should we deny them “connection to the disciplic succession” and give it to others who only promised to chant 16 rounds and follow 4 principles, but who are likely only following 3 principles
and chanting a few rounds (maybe we can think of them as minor league disciples).
And shouldn’t there be a process of negotiation in which a disciple goes to their guru and says I can only chant four rounds a day and I can’t stop having sex with my wife so can we create a new standard and thus I can promise to follow a lower standard. At least this way they will be in good standing, won’t have guilt all over their lives, won’t feel like failures, and will be following their vows. Won’t both gurus and disciples will be better off?
Or will they? And that’s the big question. Will they be better off or not? Or will they both go to hell?
Looking forward to your replies.
Your servant, Mahatma das
Yogindra dasa: Dear Mahatma prabhu,
>we could conclude that most members of Iskcon are
>not connected to the disciplic succession because they are either not
>initiated or they don’t follow all their vows.
What then does it mean to be a member of ISKCON? Please recall what Srila Prabhupada wrote at the closure of the Bhagavad Gita Preface:
“Instead of satisfying his own personal material senses, he has to satisfy the senses of the Lord. That is the highest perfection of life. The Lord wants this, and He demands it. One has to understand this central point of Bhagavad-gita. Our Krishna consciousness movement is teaching the whole world this central point, and because we are not polluting the theme of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, anyone seriously interested in deriving benefit by studying the Bhagavad-gita must take help from the Krishna consciousness movement for practical understanding of Bhagavad-gita under the direct guidance of the Lord. We hope, therefore, that people will derive the greatest benefit by studying Bhagavad-gita As It Is as we have presented it here, and if even one man becomes a pure devotee of the Lord, we shall consider our attempt a success.” A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami 12 May, 1971 Sydney, Australia
>Isn’t initiation just a formality? Aren’t we all connected?
“guru padasraya, diksa, gurura sevana” CC Mad. lila Ch.22 text 115 pg395
There are many other similar instructions we all know. One may somehow connect anyway but an essential element in one’s retaionship with Lord Krishna is missing without diksa.
> so can we create a new standard and thus I can promise to
> follow a lower standard.
Since ISKCON no longer has a monopoly on Vaisnavism in the West, ISKCON no longer has to (if it ever did) accomodate a variety of standards. There are plenty of other groups for devotees seeking compromises.
ISKCON’s unique function is to socialize those who are sincere and serious to uphold the (relatively) high standard Srila Prabhupada established concerning initiation vows, et al.
>won’t have guilt all over their lives, won’t feel like failures,
Not necessarily bad, depending on how one deals with it:
BG 3.31 purport
“In the beginning of Krishna consciousness, one may not fully discharge the injunctions of the Lord, but because one is not resentful of this principle and works sincerely without consideration of defeat and hopelessness, he will surely be promoted to the stage of pure Krishna consciousness.”
Your servant,
Yogindra dasa
Mukunda Datta das:
> Prabhus,
> Continuing our discussion on vows, I would like your feedback about the
> following dilemma.
Dandavats, Mahatma prabhu. Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Thanks for your message.
In short, it seems like the best way to overcome such problems is to encourage some of the advantageous corollary practices found in sastra, practices Srila Prabhupada also recommended as favorable for developing bhakti–under the guidance of more advanced devotees. I’ll elaborate below.
> If someone is initiated and doesn’t eventually follow, since they are
> breaking their initiation vows it could be argued, based on statements
> Prabhupada made that the initiation has lost it’s meaning and therefore
> they are not connected (or to be a little softer we could say maybe they
> not connected well, or perhaps they are really in limbo until they
> reconnect by following their vows again) . Or if you want to take
> Prabhupada’s words at face value they are not even devotees, neither are
> they even gentleman.
Krishna also sets a pretty high standard when He says one can never become a yogi unless he renounces the desire for sense gratification.
> It can also be argued philosophically that if they don’t take initiation
> they are not connected to the disciplic succession. If for the sake of
> argument we accept this premise and the premise that if an initiate doesn’t
>follow his or her vows their initiation has no meaning, then we could
> conclude that most members of Iskcon
Is this assumption based on some sort of scientific survey?
> are not connected to the disciplic
> succession because they are either not initiated or they don’t follow all
> their vows.
At least implicitly, Krishna accepts many different standards as some sort of bhakti (cf., Gita, 12.8-12), which are objectively sponsored by a bonafide guru. But we shouldn‘t exploit Krishna’s Divine grace, nor are most of us in a position to reject others.
The word “hypocrite” indicates somebody whose behavior isn’t consistent with his teachings. It does seem like many of us don’t follow our teachings fully, for various reasons. Maybe we practice bhakty-abhasa, by chanting namabhasa. But it’s understood from the outset that most who take up spiritual life don’t make it all the way back home–at least not immediately. Almost everyone in the modern world is pretty disadvantaged–not only because that’s the nature of Kaliyuga, but also because the civilization we now live in is relatively a more pungent one.
Before sustaining mature bhakti, we embody characteristics ordinarily gained through karma and jnana (results that bhakti also gives). In their Gita commentaries, our acaryas have taken great care to explain how the sacrifice/austerities inherent in dharmic action (i. e., karma) purify our intelligence enough to enable us to appropriately process the atma-jnana we recieve from our gurus. In turn, such jnana culminates in brahman realization–the substrate of real bhakti. This is no small feat, and if most of us aren’t tempted by “the last snare of maya,” it’s probably because we’re nowhere near having that much adhikara. So in most cases, I believe, we need to purify our *material* existence (Krishna calls this “sattva-samsuddhi”). In Srila Prabhupada’s later years, he similarly stressed varnasrama–even calling it the remaining 50% of his mission. It seems he saw that we were having a lot of trouble. The entire passage of his oft-quoted “varnasramacaravata” verse (Visnu Purana, 3.8.8) emphasizes the importance of generic dharmas for developing pure bhakti.
Such preliminary disciplines should not be casually neglected, because with proper guidance, they definitely help us to follow our process.
Ultimately, though, only someone who transcendental to material conditioning can really give definite and practical answers to the kinds of questions you’ve raised here. Mahajano yena gatah sa pantha. GBC legislation often encroaches into the areas traditionally arbited by gurus and acaryas, but even GBC members themselves don’t follow GBC laws; possibly this is because people intuit that such laws aren’t unquestionably Divine revelations.
> Of course, that sounds harsh. How can we say they are not connected? Isn’t
> initiation just a formality? Aren’t we all connected? Well, that’s a good
> question. And if we are all connected, why bother risking a big failure by
> taking
> initiation? If it’s just to belong and get a name, let’s give out names and
> three regs and 4 rounds - something that most everyone can do instead of
> giving a standard that most will never keep? Why set people up to fail?
The nature of the diamond market is that very few can actually afford to buy diamonds. Krishna says as much throughout Bhagavad-gita (e. g., 7.3, 7.28, etc.). We’re aspiriing for something way beyond us, so they’re possible only by Krishna’s Divine grace. But your above questions suggest that we can propose our own solutions in a field that requires Divine guidance; I think angels fear to tread there.
The standards of other faiths feel more natural to those who can’t maintain sattva-guna, and they’re always more appealing–even for those who can. Islam in particular tends to be more tamasika, most others seem more rajasika. But they’re all like cubic zirconia; to the untrained eye, they look just like real diamonds.
> And if we just give them 4 rounds and 3 principles, that will put them on
> par with many initiated devotees. So why should we deny them “connection to
> the disciplic succession” and give it to others who only promised to chant 16
> rounds and follow 4 principles, but who are likely only following 3
> principles and chanting a few rounds (maybe we can think of them as minor > >
league disciples).
This sounds like nama-hatta membership. Mundakopanisad says (1.2.12):
“Having surveyed all spheres, a broad-minded man fed up with karmic endeavors thinks: ‘There’s nothing here that isn’t the cause or effect of karma–so what’s the use in adding more karma?’ To realize absolute truth, that man is willing to serve menially and must approach a guru who is learned and fixed in spirit. ”
I don’t think we’re set up to fail as much as we just have to remember how profound our chosen path is. Sometimes we just lose sight of our initial attraction to spiritual life (usually by accepting lower associations), then we take shelter of subtle or gross materialism. When our faith eventually reflects our asat-sanga, we will break our vows.
Of course, there is no such thing as “vikarma-yoga,” though many seem to assume that there is–or should be. Sinful activity always destroys one’s intelligence and strengthens one’s false ego. Fallen devotees hoping to retain honor sometimes propose socio-religious standards for others, as if the best defence were a good offence:
“First of all, the conditioned soul is cheated by so-called svamis, yogis and incarnations when he approaches them to be relieved of material miseries. When the conditioned soul is not satisfied with them, he comes to devotees and pure brahmanas who try to elevate him for final liberation from material bondage. However, the unscrupulous conditioned soul cannot rigidly follow the principles prohibiting illicit sex. intoxication, gambling and meat-eating. Thus he falls down and takes shelter of people who are like monkeys. In the Kåñëa consciousness movement these monkey disciples, being unable to follow the strict regulative principles, sometimes fall down and try to form societies based on sex. This is proof that such people are descendants of monkeys, as confirmed by Darwin.” –purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam, 5.14.30
> And shouldn’t there be a process of negotiation in which a disciple goes to
> their guru and says I can only chant four rounds a day and I can’t stop
> having sex with my wife so can we create a new standard and thus I can
> promise to
> follow a lower standard. At least this way they will be in good standing,
> won’t have guilt all over their lives,
Guilt is second-cousin to conscience–one of the most powerful allies we have in the struggle to steer our minds above all these bodily misconceptions and temporal attractions. But again, we require good guidance from a bonafide guru
(or more advanced devotees) to avoid many pitfalls associated with it. Yogis call the conscience dharmendriya (the organ of virtue). It is less susceptible to confusion than is the intelligence. B. K. S. Iyengar gives the analogy that the subtle body is like a lens to the soul; every lens has two sides. The front side of that lens (mind, intelligence, and false ego) gets dusty by contacting the external world via the senses. Conscience is like the back side of that lens, which faces the soul. Being in direct proximity to the soul, conscience only tells us one thing–the more difficult path (sreyas). This hurts, since it always pulls us closer to our real self, and toward Paramatma. Without such potential conflict, no one could ever pull free of the tricks perpetrated by the mind through his friend, the infected intelligence (avisuddha-buddhi). Thus conscience underscores, practically, the inherent tension of being a spiritual entity in a material world.
> won’t feel like failures, and will be
> following their vows. Won’t both gurus and disciples will be better off?
But people’s lives are at stake here. In US public education, they continually lower the bar on academic achievement until those who graduate with flyings colors remain functionally illiterate. This has massive consequences. Personally, I don’t want such engineers designing the bridges I drive over.
If there’s a place for everyone in Krishna consciousness, shouldn’t there be some sort of initiation made available so that active pedophiles feel included? The day is fast approaching when pedophiles will also clamor for this, but I think the answer is clear. We love and include everyone because it does take all kinds (cf. SB 11.28.1). And we can always learn something from anyone. But we cannot learn everything from just anyone. We have to distinguish between people in sattva, rajas, and tamas–because one leads us higher, another carries us sideways, and the third throws us down.
Discrimination is the keyword of madhyama-adhikara, and preaching demands it.
> Or will they? And that’s the big question. Will they be better off or not?
> Or will they both go to hell?
Krishna advises that we decide what is or isn’t done on the basis of what sastra enjoins, and He follows his own advice. In the mundane realm, while accomodating everyone (in innumerable ways), sastra also urges everyone towards more illumination through full awareness (e. g., SB 11.13.6):
“Until one revives one’s direct knowledge of the spirit soul and drives away the illusory identification with the material body and mind caused by the three modes of nature, one must cultivate those things in the mode of goodness. By increasing the mode of goodness, one automatically can understand and practice religious principles, and by such practice transcendental knowledge is awakened.”
If anyone isn’t able to accept this for some reasons, but also isn’t forthright enough to say so, he or she will posibly destroy other peoples’ faith by looking like a hypocrite–or as Prabhupada says, a dvija-bandhu; unfortunately, in that case, it’s almost impossible to not be pegged.
I think the best way to avoid this is to encourage those in question to take advantage of the preliminary sastric practices Srila Prabhupada recommended as favorable for developing bhakti–under the guidance of pure devotees.
I hope this is helpful.
Your humble servant,
Mukunda Datta dasa
Trivikrama Swami: I appreciate this exchange initiated by Mahatma Prabhu. Mukunda Datta Prabhu and Yogindra Prabhu make many nice points. Here is something from a conversation with Srila Prabhupada that seems relevant in some degree.
—————–
Prabhupada: At least the church people, the priests, they must follow strictly the rules.
Richard Webster: Yes. But I mean the difference seems to be with the Christian…
Prabhupada: Common man may not follow or cannot, but those who are teachers or the priest or the leaders or the executive head, they must follow. Otherwise they cannot remain pure and they cannot take the position of teacher or head. Head must be clean. Other parts may be unclean, but the head must be clean; otherwise the whole business will be spoiled. Therefore, the strictures, rules and regulation, must be followed by four persons. One person is the executive head like the president or the king. And the other person is the religious preacher, priest. And the other person is the public leader. So at least these three, four heads of the men’s human society, they must be of ideal character. Otherwise the whole society will be spoiled. People will follow the heads.
[Bg. 3.21]
Rome, May 24′74.
—————–
So althought some in the congregation may not be able to follow, at least those leading our Iskcon society like the GBC, Sannyasis, Temple Presidents, Temple Board members etc., must be expected to follow all four regulative principles and chant 16 rounds daily, or as Srila Prabhupada warns, “the whole society will be spoiled”
Ys TS
Babhru das: To underline the quotation provided by Trivikrama Maharaja, here’s something Srila Prabhupada said on a morning walk here in Hawaii:
Jayatirtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to your instruction.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that a fool’s paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC. They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool’s paradise. At least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes, then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then it is fool’s paradise. So somehow or other, we have got now a position. People likes us. So we should not spoil by personal sense gratification. That is my request. If we can maintain this institution rigidly according to the order, then many people will be benefited. By seeing our behavior, by character, they will become. Apani acari prabhu jiveri siksaya. The leader should be ideal.
February 3, 1975, Hawaii
So the leaders’ example must be ideal: excellent sadhana, freedom from the pursuit of sense gratification. Otherwise, we’re left with the blind leading the blind in a fool’s paradise.
Yours in service, Babhru das
Mahatma das: I came across some letters in which Prabhupada said we don’t want to make a lot of initiates. The gist of these letters was that we want to get people in general to chant Hare Krsna, but those who take initiation are meant to dedicate themselves fully to the mission. So in this understanding, initiation involves more than taking vows to chant and follow the principles, it means giving one’s life to the spiritual master and his mission.
Your servant,
Mahatma das
Babhru das: Perhaps there could be a different standard for Harinama (”first initiation”) and diksa (”second initiation”). I think this is something like what some gurus in other missions practice. There are several letters in which Srila Prabhupada says that second initiation is the important initiation. (There are also a couple in which he says that the first initiation is the important one, perhaps because there is commitment between the spiritual master and the disciple.) I’m not saying this should be the standard in ISKCON, as we know that Srila Prabhupada asked that we commit to following four regulative principles and chanting sixteen rounds daily for the rest of our lives. I’m suggesting it for discussion. One reason I think this may be useful to discuss is that when he gave me second initiation, Srila Prabhupada asked me if I had been faithfully following the regulative principles and chanting sixteen rounds. When I replied that I had for several years, he asked me if I was happy. (I liked that question quite well.)
One thing to keep in mind is that these commitments should be understood by all parties as voluntary. I have never, in my memory, told anyone that I can’t eat meat or drink. I have always said that I don’t. When I asked for initiation, I asked Srila Prabhupada to engage me in helping him spread Lord Chaitanya’s sankirtan movement for the rest of my life. The life of a disciple should be one of helping the guru in his service of propagating nama dharma.
Yours in service, Babhru das
Makhanlal das:
Babhruji, “Perhaps” is a risky word to use in relation to such an important topic as initiation. Certainly there must be a distinction between the weight of first and second initiation.
The bottom line: NOT ALL INITIATES ARE BRAHMINS! For second initiation, they must be (1) temple cooks; (2) performing deity worship, either regularly at home, or at the temple; (3) preachers–either in schools, colleges, dedicated book distributors, etc. (4) teachers of Krishna consciousness in a devotee school.
Any other compellingly brahminical activity would also qualify, if I left something important off the list. In other words, 2nd initiation must strictly be according to qualification, not even the number of years in the movement. It is a great misconception that if a devotee has been associated with ISKCON, in somewhat good standing, for two or more years, that they should AUTOMATICALLY be granted 2nd initiation as a matter of right, not privilege.
In all fairness, the movement has tried to tighten the standards for 2nd initiation by administering (in some temples, at least) a strict test similar to Bhakti Shastri. However, the cheating propensity is such that after 2nd initiation, many devotees, even if dressed in saffron, relax, and consider that now they no longer have to follow basic sadhana, for now they are an esteemed “senior devotee”. This is especially a problem in India, where perhaps only ten out of 60 brachmacharis, at some major ISKCON centers, will come to Bhagavatam class! But sure as day, when it comes time for breakfast, they are there, on time. Thus we see, the real issue is that high standards, as given by Srila Prabhupada, have to be enforced all the way around, or everything will be lost with time.
YS, Makhanlal das
1016JC - Nama Acharya Haridas Thakur Nama Acharya Haridas Thakur

Nov 3, '07 4:29 AM
para Todos

Nama Acharya Haridas Thakur


Haridas Thakur is known as Namaacharya Haridas. When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeard he chanted the holy names of the lord and all that heard them became Namaacharyas. Haridas Thakur was empowerd to set the perfect example of surrender to the holy name. His faith and devotion to the chanting of the holy name is unparrelled. He has said that simply by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one can become free from all misery.He has shown us that those who are actually servants of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu must seriously distribute this chanting all over the world to render the greatest benefit to human society. Of course, animals and other lower species are not capable of understanding the science of Krsna, but if even a small number of living beings take it seriously, by their chanting loudly, all living entities, including even trees, animals and other lower species, will be benefited. When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu inquired from Haridasa Thakura how he was to benefit living entities other than humans, Srila Haridasa Thakura replied that the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so potent that if it is chanted loudly, everyone will benefit, including the lower species of life.
The twentieth branch of the Caitanya tree was Haridasa Thakura. His character was wonderful. He used to chant the holy name of Krsna 300,000 times a day without fail.
There is no end to the transcendental qualities of Haridasa Thakura. He was so exalted that Advaita Gosvami, when performing the sraddha ceremony of his father, offered him the first plate.
Haridasa Thakura is exceptional for his forbearance because although he was beaten with canes in twenty-two marketplacesby the demons, nevertheless he was tolerant. Similarly, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, although he belonged to a most respectable brahmana family, was exceptional for his humility and meekness.
Sanatana Gosvami later described the glories of Haridasa Thakura.
It is understood that Advaita Prabhu, at one time, was in His own paternal house at Santipura. Haridasa Thakura frequently used to meet Him. Coincidentally, therefore, he was also there, and upon the birth of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu both of them immediately began to dance. But no one in Santipura could understand why those two saintly persons were dancing.
On the maha-prakasa day, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu embraced Haridasa Thakura and informed him that he was none other than an incarnation of Prahlada Maharaja.
When Haridasa Thakura and Rupa Gosvami saw that all the devotees were accepting prasada and chanting the holy name of Hari, they both were greatly pleased.
Namacarya Haridasa Thakura, the authority on the chanting of the holy name, said, “The chanting of the Lord’s holy name to indicate something other than the Lord is an instance of namabhasa. Even when the holy name is chanted in this way, its transcendental power is not destroyed.
Namacarya Haridasa Thakura continued, “If one offenselessly utters the holy name even imperfectly, one can be freed from all the results of sinful life.
As Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu heard this from Haridasa Thakura, the happiness within His heart increased, but as a matter of course, He still inquired further.
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu derives great pleasure from glorifying His devotees, and among the devotees, Haridasa Thakura is the foremost.
The transcendental qualities of Haridasa Thakura are innumerable and unfathomable. One may describe a portion of them, but to count them all is impossible.
No one can describe all the qualities of Haridasa Thakura. One may say something about them just to purify himself.
Haridasa Thakura constructed a cottage in a solitary forest. There he planted a tulasi plant, and in front of the tulasi he would chant the holy name of the Lord 300,000 times daily. He chanted throughout the entire day and night.
The village of Benapola is situated in the district of Yasohara, which is now in Bangladesh. Benapola is near the Banagano station, which is at the border of Bangladesh and may be reached by the eastern railway from Shelda Station in Calcutta. Haridasa Thakura, being the acarya of chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, is called Namacarya Haridasa Thakura. From his personal Example we can understand that chanting the Hare Krsna mantra and becoming highly elevated in Krsna consciousness is very simple. Without difficulty one can sit down anywhere, especially on the bank of the Ganges, Yamuna or any sacred river, devise a sitting place or cottage, plant a tulasi, and before the tulasi chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra undisturbed.
Throughout the entire day and night, he would chant the sixteen names of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. One should not, however, imitate Haridasa Thakura, for no one else can chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra 300,000 times a day. Such chanting is for the mukta-purusa, or liberated soul. We can follow his example, however, by chanting our prescribed number of rounds of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra on beads every day and offering respect to the tulasi plant. This is not at all difficult for anyone, and the process of chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra with a vow before the tulasi plant has such great spiritual potency that simply by doing this one can become spiritually strong. Therefore we request everyone to follow Haridasa Thakura’s example rigidly. Chanting rounds does not take much time, nor is offering respects to the tulasi plant difficult. The process has immense spiritual potency. One should not miss this opportunity.
In the days of Haridasa Thakura, all the brahmanas worshiped Narayana in the form of the salagrama-sila. Therefore begging alms from a brahmana’s house meant taking krsna-prasada, which is transcendental (nirguna). If we take food from the house of others, such as karmis, we shall have to share the qualities of those from whom we take alms. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took prasada in the houses of Vaisnavas. This is the general process. Aspireing Viasnavas are advised not to take food from anywhere but a Vaisnava’s or brahmana’s house where Deity worship is performed. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said, visayira anna khaile dusta haya mana: if a devotee takes alms or food from the house of a karmi who is simply interested in money, his mind will be unclean. We must always remember that a devotee’s life is one of vairagya-vidya, or renunciation and knowledge. Therefore all devotees are warned not to live unnecessarily luxurious lives at the cost of others. Grhasthas living within the jurisdiction of the temple must be especially careful not to imitate karmis by acquiring opulent clothing, food and conveyances. As far as possible, these should be avoided. Devoteess whether grhastha, brahmacari or sannyasi, must practice a life of renunciation, following in the footsteps of Haridasa Thakura and the six Gosvamis. Otherwise, because maya is very strong, at any time one may become a victim of maya and fall down from spiritual life.
We can clearly see how a Vaisnava delivers a fallen soul by a transcendental trick. A prostitute came to pollute Haridasa Thakura but he took it as his duty to deliver the prostitute. As clearly demonstrated here, the process of deliverance is very simple. With faith and reverence the prostitute associated with Haridasa Thakura, who personally treated her material disease by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Although the prostitute had an ulterior motive, somehow or other she got the association of a Vaisnava and satisfied him by occasionally chanting in imitation, “O my Lord Hari, O my Lord Hari.” The conclusion is that associating with a Vaisnava, chanting the holy name of the Lord and offering obeisances to the tulasi plant or a Vaisnava all lead one to become a transcendental devotee who is completely cleansed of all material contamination.
According to external vision, Haridasa Thakura belonged to a Mohammedan family. Nevertheless, because he engaged himself in performing the yajna of chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, he became a regularly initiated brahmana.
As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.33.6):
yan-namadheya-sravananukirtanad
yat-prahvanad yat-smaranad api kvacit
svado ‘pi sadyah savanaya kalpate
kutah punas te bhagavan nu darsanat
Even if a devotee comes from a family of dog-eaters, if he surrenders to the personality of Godhead he immediately becomes a qualified brahmana and is immediately fit to perform yajna, whereas a person born in a family of brahmanas has to wait until completing the reformatory processes before he may be called samskrta, purified.
Raghunatha dasa, who was the son of Hiranya Majumadara and was later to become Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, when he was a young boy engaged in study. He made time to to see Haridasa Thakura daily.
Naturally Haridasa Thakura was merciful toward him, and because of the merciful benediction of this Vaisnava, he later attained the shelter of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s lotus feet.
While Haridasa Thakura was staying under the care of Advaita Acarya, he was afraid of the behavior of society in Santipura, Navadvipa, which was full of exceedingly aristocratic brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas. Haridasa Thakura was born in a Mohammedan family and was later recognized as a great Vaisnava, but nevertheless the brahmanas were very critical of him. Thus Haridasa Thakura was afraid that Advaita Acarya would be put into some difficulty because of His familiarity with Haridasa Thakura.
Sri Advaita Acarya treated Haridasa Thakura as a most elevated Vaisnava, but others, like Ramacandra Khan, were envious of Haridasa Thakura.
Of course, we have to follow in the footsteps of Advaita Acarya, not caring for people like Ramacandra Khan. At present, many Vaisnavas are coming from among the Europeans and Americans, and although a man like Ramacandra Khan is always envious of such Vaisnavas, one should follow in the footsteps of Sri Advaita Acarya by treating all of them as Vaisnavas. Although they are not as exalted as Haridasa Thakura, such Americans and Europeans, having accepted the principles of Vaisnava philosophy and behavior, should never be excluded from Vaisnava society.
The Passing of Haridasa Thakura
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Amrta-pravaha-bhasya has said; “Brahma Haridasa Thakura gave up his body with the consent of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and the Lord Himself personally performed the funeral ceremony and carried the body to the sea. He personally entombed the body, covered it with sand, and erected a platform on the site. After taking bath in the sea, He personally begged prasada of Jagannatha from shopkeepers and distributed prasada to the assembled devotees.”
By using the words tomara avatara (”your incarnation”), Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu confirms that Haridasa Thakura is the incarnation of Lord Brahma. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that advanced devotees help the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His mission and that such devotees or personal associates incarnate by the will of the Supreme Lord. The Supreme Lord incarnates by His own will, and, by His will, competent devotees also incarnate to help Him in His mission. Haridasa Thakura is thus the incarnation of Lord Brahma, and other devotees are likewise incarnations who help in the prosecution of the Lord’s mission.
As He described the transcendental attributes of Haridasa Thakura, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu seemed to possess five mouths. The more He described, the more His great happiness increased.
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu bathed the body of Haridasa Thakura in the sea and then declared, “From this day on, this sea has become a great pilgrimage site.”
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave this benediction: “Anyone who has seen the festival of Sri Haridasa Thakura’s passing away, anyone who has chanted and danced here, anyone who has offered sand on the body of Haridasa Thakura and anyone who has joined this festival to partake of the prasada will achieve the favor of Krsna very soon. There is such wonderful power in seeing Haridasa Thakura.
At Purusottama-ksetra, or Jagannatha Puri, there is a temple of Tota-gopinatha. If one goes from there to the sea, he can discover the tomb of Haridasa Thakura still existing. Every year on the date of Ananta-caturdasi there is a festival to commemorate the passing away of Haridasa Thakura. At the same place, three Deities of Nityananda, Krsna Caitanya and Advaita Prabhu were established about one hundred years ago. A gentleman named Bhramaravara from Kendrapada in the province of Orissa contributed funds to establish these Deities in the temple. The management of the temple was under the Tota-gopinatha gosvamis.
This temple was later sold to someone else, and this party is now maintaining the seva-puja of the temple. Near this temple and the tomb of Haridasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura constructed a small house, called Bhakti-kuti. In the Bengali year 1329 (A.D. 1922), Purusottama-matha, a branch of the Gaudiya Matha, was established there. in the Bhakti-ratnakara it is stated:
Haridasa Thakura is mentioned here as the most learned scholar, parama-vidvan. Actually, the most important science to know is the science of getting out of the clutches of material existence. Anyone who knows this science must be considered the greatest learned person. Anyone who knows the temporary situation of this material world and is expert in achieving a permanent situation in the spiritual world, who knows that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is beyond the jurisdiction of our experimental knowledge, is understood to be the most learned scholar. Haridasa Thakura knew this science perfectly. Therefore, he is described in this connection as parama-vidvan. He personally preached the importance of chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, which is approved by the revealed scriptures.
As stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.5.24):
iti pumsarpita visnau
bhaktis cen nava-laksana
kriyeta bhagavaty addha
tan manye dhitam uttamam
There are nine different processes of devotional service to Krsna, the most important being sravanam kirtanam–hearing and chanting. Haridasa Thakura knew this science very well, and he can therefore be called, technically, sarva-sastradhiti. Anyone who has learned the essence of all the Vedic scripture is to be known as a first-class educated person, with full knowledge of all sastra.
After the passing away of Haridasa Thakura, the Lord Himself took his body on His lap, and He danced with it in great ecstasy.
Nama Acharya Srila Haridas Thakur Ki Jaya
1015JC - Suggestion about change of standard for guru-worship Suggestion about change of standard for guru-worship

Nov 3, '07 4:21 AM
para Todos

Suggestion about change of standard for guru-worship

 
In the wake of the abolishment of the zonal acharya system, and also in the wake of the falldown of several later gurus, the standard for guru worship was toned down considerably. However, I feel that we have gone a little too far in the other direction. It has almost become as if worshipping ones guru is some illicit activity. If you really insist on doing it, you can, but (I am exaggeration a little) only in some dark corner when nobody is watching.
Maybe it is a hot potato because of the ritviks and all that, but I feel there is a danger of downplaying the role of the guru too much, so that we actually become disconnected from the guru parampara and lose the chance to become purified by learning to be a servant of Krishnas devotee. There is nothing that more effectively than serving the guru cuts the hard knot of our false ego, and that might also be (at least part of) the reason, why guru tattva has become such a controversial issue in ISKCON. After alle we are also conditioned souls and therefore we are sometimes looking for excuses not to surrender. I myself have had the experience of having my spiritual master fall down, but I seriously feel, that if somebody follows the process given by Srila Prabhupada, he need not have the slightes problem in spite of such an event.
I am a little envious of the direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada, who are allowed to freely worship their Spiritual Master. What about all of us who do not have this privilege. Some time ago there was an article by Giriraja Swami in BTG about service to the spiritual master. It was very nice and inspiring. Since Maharaja is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, I guess it was natural for him to speak about his relationship with Srila Prabhupada. However, after reading the article I couldn’t help asking myself; ”What about me. I am not directly connected with Srila Prabhupada. Does that mean that I have to forget about serving Krishnas representative directly.” Of course I know it is not like that, but the article did not speak very much about service to the guru as a universal principle, which applies to everyone, not only Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. This is just an example of what I feel is a general tendency to avoid pointing out the paramount importance of serving the guru, even if he doesn’t happen to be Srila Prabhupada. After all, why did Srila Prabhupada instituted the singing of Gurvastakam as the first thing we do in the morning. Did he mean for everyone to simply think about him when singing that song. I think it is obvious, that he wanted to underscore the universal principle of worshiping ones guru, as he also did in his books and lectures.
I feel the time has maybe come to encourage the disciples of present gurus a little more to worship their guru. After all it is stated in NOC that you cannot even become a sadhaka without taking shelter of a spiritual master. My suggestion is, that disciples should be allowed to worship their guru by keeping his picture underneath Prabhupada on his vyasasana during Srila Praphupada’s guru puja. In this way it will be easier to remember to worship ones guru daily, as one should, and also to remember that it is through the guru that we approach Srila Prabhupada and also Krishna. I don’t see, why anybody should have a problem with that, and personally I would feel much more connected with guru and Krishna in that way.
G. das Vanachari
(an unworthy disciple of S. Swami)
http://www.prabhupada.org/rama/?p=4134


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